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athgarvan

SLOGANS ARE NOT DEBATES

Nowadays we see more and more parades carrying posters on our streets. We can so easily fall into the trap of using slogans and think we are engaging in meaningful debate. Using slogans allows us to think we are debating when in fact we’re not engaging in debate, or even listening to what others are saying. We might hear what they say but not actually listen to the contributions they are trying to make to a complex debate.

Slogans always indicate that I believe I am right and above criticism. And they say to the other person that while I may hear what you are saying, I’m not listening to the point of being able to modify, let along change, my mind because of what they are saying.
Slogans, and a refusal to listen, seem to be the hallmarks of what passes as political debate nowadays. Political ‘debate’ is so often now reduced to pantomime.

"Guns do not kill people, people kill people". Does this slogan just beg the question,  does it not oversimplify the issue? Does it not require real debate? The argument has no context, no stated conclusion.

Comments

i open my computer and here you are!!!
The sun is just up here and making a bright path on the water to my window
i hope yours is a good Sunday

my first thought when reading the slogans you post
they sum up a position - say it all in a few words
and they are a way to say - "yes, me too"
in a busy world many people need to chose
"i can give time and thought to this issue - it touches me personally
other issues i accept what is said - yes, me too"

slogans are a challenge
agree or disagree?
debate is necessary but attention must be drawn to the issue first
"My body, my choice" on the matter of abortion needs a very, very, serious debate, not a slogan. On what grounds is this assertion based? Because we say so?
you know how feminist women think
You will not change us - no matter how much discussion
it is choice !
"it is my body - what i do with my body is up to me - my choice!"

No
that which is with in me as long as it feeds off me is my decision
some decisions are not wise - drugs, alcohol, smoking - not wise for me or if i chose to keep the fetus


but beyond that are the agonizing decisions a woman must make
what if that child is deformed? - has a fatal condition?
what if i can't bring this pregnancy to term?
what if it is the result of trauma?

who makes the decision?
it is my body - my choice
no one should have power over my body
would a man give someone else power over his body?

So there can be no argument!
None- and certainly not with any man!
What seaivy said!
I can dispute this by saying: The unborn entity within a pregnant woman's body is not part of her body. The conceptus is a genetically distinct entity with its own unique and individual gender, blood-type, bone-structure, and genetic code. Although the unborn entity is attached to its mother it is not part of her. Can a pregnant woman be said to have four legs,, two heads. four arms, etc.?
when it's eating off her and has taken flesh of her body and can not exist with out her vital organs - yes the woman has these extra limbs!
as long as the umbilical is attached it is an extra organ of the woman

when that entity can exist on it's own then it is a unique individual
before that - "just baggage in the uterus"
I think I'll stick with the slogans after all!!

It is not guns that kill people - it's people - e.g. pregnant women.

Edited at 2016-09-18 15:18 (UTC)
charming!
some men will never understand !

that sweet poster of mom and dad and lovely baby is propaganda!
it doesn't take into consideration the realities of pregnancy
the fear and pain of desperate women
the history women have to gain autonomy

place that dependency in the womb above the reality of a living woman and you reduce all of us to mere objects

i wonder what some men would think if they were the ones pregnant
with body changes - with possible death - with financial burdens - with life plans challenged or changed

what if he had been forced into intercourse against his will?
his body violated
the reminder with him endlessly for nine months?

it's so easy for men to place theory above reality

a woman does not become pregnant without concomitant emotions
some times those are happy even jubilant emotions
that can be dashed by heartbreaking reality
sometimes those emotions are dark, fearful, haunting
an equally heartbreaking reality

to call her a murderer is unbelievably cruel
even if the comment was only being clever

for men pregnancy is a legal and/or theological proposition
for a woman it is an ever present reality
even those of us past pregnancy remember

a woman has a right to control her body
to deny that is to make her an object
to reduce her to slavery
it is as simple and unshakeable as that

another thought

i think what is missing in this discussion
given the choice what she chooses is up to the woman
there religion and philosophy can influence her choice

to have a choice does not mean to automatically chose abortion
it means just that - the right to chose
the right of autonomy





Edited at 2016-09-18 16:00 (UTC)
"...it's so easy for men to place theory above reality..."

Not me.

That being said, I am now thinking of writing a story wherein the country outlaws abortion under any circumstances... and the aliens who were behind the effort immediately implant men with the embryos of their young.

Which they are now forbidden by law to get rid of.

As a survivor of child abuse, I favor abortion on demand.

The Founders had nothing against execution, but they specifically outlawed torture.
Desperate people have all sorts of desperate things. that does not make them right or legal.
nor is it right for the law to make people desperate

i don't know where you live but in the USA abortion is a legal medical procedure
no woman must have the procedure against her wishes and belief
but no woman should be inconvenienced and excluded from this necessary procedure
no one should inhibit or pervent a woman's choice
"nor is it right for the law to make people desperate"


Is that even intended to mean something? The vast majority of laws have made people desperate at some time.

"a legal medical procedure"

Slavery's been legal. Legality doesn't mean something's right.
nor does one person's moral indignation cancel another's legal right

it is a medical procedure
it is legal in the USA
women have a right to medical care and treatment
the decision is made by the woman and her doctor
only they have the right to decide
other people's opinions have no validity in this decision

"when life begins" is a philosophical/moral discussion and is not the same as fetal viability
over the centuries there have been different opinions on the question

Ah, a case in point

Which of these is intended to change anyone's mind?
As a mother of three (and one child which died in utero) my view on this issue has changed and developed time and again. The debate is hugely complex with no simple answers one way or the other, which is - of course - something that many struggle with. Including myself.
Who made us judge and jury? No one did so we should not interfere with anyone's life!!

Edited at 2016-09-18 17:35 (UTC)
Yes, we live in a world of not only polarization but over-simplification.

There are so many voices shouting to be heard these days, that many feel they have only a moment to gain their audiences' attention, before that audience is "distracted from distraction by distraction." Short, pithy slogans with high emotional content grab attention more quickly than reasoned opinion, so the slogans become ever shorter and more simplified, while the emotional content grows more concentrated.

It's sad.

Edited at 2016-09-18 14:28 (UTC)
Sometimes those four word slogans are useful for grabbing the eyes, and you have to do that before you can grab the brain/heart. So they do serve the purpose of opening up useful communications- except, of course, when the issue is so polarizing that it just makes people mad. But sometimes that has to be done, too.
A Hell* of a lot of slogans are meant to do exactly that: shut off thought. I've never liked that gun slogan, because shutting off thought is something I just can't do; fact is, a lot of people are rotten bastards, and the conclusion can be reached "so don't let them have guns". And I support private ownership of weapons the government doesn't know about. (Do I have any? Answering that ruins the point.)

But there are remarks that encourage thought, which have been made into slogans. My current favorite among these is, "If your government tells you you don't need a gun, you need a gun."

I am prepared to believe the person who coined it was an Indian.





(*I am using the proper noun here.)
When I posted this subject I was only reflecting on the way slogans have taken over from proper argument and debate on many important issues.

I did not intend it to be an argument about the rights and wrongs of abortion.
and in my first reply that is where i took it
but in your reply to me you lit the match

and several of us have said that slogans are meant to provoke debate
and you just proved that

: )